SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome to Catholic in America, a podcast in partnership with OSB News. I'm Jason Atkins. Jerusalem is named the city of peace, but today continues to stand divided religiously, ethnically, politically, and geographically amid ongoing war and conflict, not just in the Holy Land, but also the Middle East more generally. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict continues to fester and renew long-standing grievances and enmities, while at the same time, the U.S. and Israel remain in conflict with Iran, a situation which could escalate and become a wide-scale battle again at any time. Many Catholics in the United States have opinions about the situation in Israel, often falling into reflexive stances about Israel or the Palestinians that mimic the usual political binaries. Many Catholics in the United States, however, are unaware that a small but resilient population of Christians remains, caught in the crossfire of the long-standing regional challenges, but also those imposed on this tiny minority by Islamic extremism on the one hand, and on the other hand, by political limitations imposed on it by Israel and on the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank, the Palestinian Christians, which are a majority of the Christian population living in Israel. These present practical day-to-day challenges of survival and make many Christians in the area question whether there is a viable future there at all. Many indeed leave almost every day. The spiritual leader of Catholics in the region, the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, Cardinal Pierre Batista Pizzabala, sees these times in the Holy Land as being the threshold of a new era. After the October 7, 2023 massacre of Israelis living near Gaza by Hamas and the beginning of the Israel Hamas War, the long-standing vocabulary and framework of how people thought about the path to peace seems to have been exhausted. The challenges posed by this change of age require reflection and discernment about paths forward to bring healing and reconciliation in this troubled land. In a recent pastoral letter to Catholics of the Holy Land entitled They Return to Jerusalem with Great Joy, a proposal for living the vocation of the Church in the Holy Land, Colonel Pete Zavala says that living in the Holy Land is a particular type of calling. Christians, he says, must see themselves as modeling the heavenly Jerusalem, a place of inclusion, reconciliation, fraternity, light, and peace. The region of Jerusalem, Israel, and the Holy Land of today can be renewed by Christians living in a way that offers a foretaste of the heavenly Jerusalem, a true kingdom of peace. I'm grateful that his Beatitude, Cardinal Pizzabala, was willing to sit down with me for a conversation during my recent trip to Israel and help Catholics in America better understand the situation of Christians in the Holy Land, their particular vocation, and how American Catholics can help them. Cardinal Pizzabala is a Franciscan friar from the Lombardy region of Italy and was ordained a priest in 1990 in Bologna. He was sent to Jerusalem for biblical study shortly thereafter and quickly developed fluency in Hebrew. In May 2004, at the age of 39, he was appointed the 167th Kustos, the head of the Franciscan Mission in the Holy Land and responsible for overseeing the holy places. In 2016, he was appointed apostolic administrator of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, and in 2020, he was made the patriarch himself. He was made a cardinal by Pope Francis just one week before the tragic events of October 2023. The after fix continued to shape his ministry. My pleasure. Thank you. Many people might not be familiar with the Latin Patriarchate and your title as Latin Patriarch. Can you say a little bit about the historical origins of your title and the overall see in your jurisdiction?

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Latin, the Latin Patriarch, Patriarch is uh, after all, here in the our church is a bishop, bishop of our diocese. And uh we use the same terminology of the Oriental churches. The head of the church here in the Middle East is called Patriarch, so we use the same name. Jurisdiction is Jordan, Israel, Palestine, and Cyprus, this part of the Middle East. The original of our diocese, our diocese has been refounded in 1847. The origin, the Latin party, the first Latin party was during the Crusaders' time, but the bishop here is the Catholic bishop is here from since always. But uh for a long period after the crusaders was not possible to have uh bishops here, or the Christian presence was reduced. But from 1847, um here in Jerusalem there is a relating partner which is in charge of uh Catholics in the countries I said.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

What do Catholics in the United States need to know about the cat the Christians who you serve in this part of the world, Holy Land?

SPEAKER_02 5:01

First of all, it's important to know that we are a minority, well numerically minority. Christians are about one maximum one point two percent of the population. So the vast majority are here in Israel, the vast majority are Jews but are also Muslims, and the other part of the diocese are Muslims. So we are a very small number. We the Christians are 1.2%, and Catholic are half of the Christian population, so we are 0.5. So it's important to know there are very few. The Christian presence here is important because we have the holy places, the places of redemption, Nazareth, Annunciation, Gethemony, Bethlehem, of course, the nativity and the resurrection, death and resurrection, the Holy Sepulchre, and so on. So the places we the Christian presence here keeps alive the memory of the life of Jesus and the history of our revelation, which is important. And all the our presence here as Catholic is the only religious non-ethnic presence. We are Christians who are Israelis, Christians who are Palestinians.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Why is it important for Catholics from all around the world make the pilgrimage to come to the Holy Land to get to better know Jesus our Lord You don't know a person that well as long as you don't see where he lives.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

This happens in all our families, I suppose. The same also for Jesus. And also we have to take in consideration another important aspect. The Christian faith is historical. We believe that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob till Jesus, they are really live there. So and there is no history of salvation without geography of salvation. There is no event without place. So to touch the place it is also to touch the event in a way. So it's important for us Christians to come here and to see, keep saying that, come and see the place where he was led.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

You just wrote a very interesting pastoral letter on the vocation of being a Christian who who lives in Teresancta, the Holy Land. What tell us a little bit about why you wrote that and what what is the vocation to live in this very special place?

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Yes, after what happened the 7 October in Gaza, I felt I need to write something in order to put order also in myself, first of all, in my heart, what we are living here and how to live it. The purpose of the pastoral letter was first of all to tell our people, the Christians, that what we are living is not going to finish that soon. So we have not to wait this to finish. But we have to ask ourselves how to live in it. So after describing what we are living, I also described was the most difficult part of the letter, what is our occasion in this situation, how to live it. And I use the image of the heavenly Jerusalem coming down from heaven. And I say that we have to be community, city is a community. So how to build a community in this situation means first of all to put God at the center. And God is also the temple and the light. It means that the our relations should be in the light of the lamb, light of God. We should learn to see the other in that light. Jerusalem has the always the gates open. So it means a community that closes itself will die. So to keep open our uh our gates. What does it mean to keep it open, of course? And uh and that means that the walls are here to define but not to defend, but also there are criteria and conditions to to live in the city, in the community, and so on. It's very long. I don't want to bother you with a letter that I think should be published in the United States in the coming months. But and then the third part, I say concretely pastorally, how to live it.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

There are many efforts in the United States through organizations such as the Catholic Near East Welfare Association, Caritas, and others to help Christians remain in the Holy Land. Why is it important for Christians to stay here, and can Christians move to the Holy Land?

SPEAKER_02 9:46

It's important for us to keep the Christian presence here, because the Christian presence is part of Providence's will. And also, as I said, it's important to keep alive the memory of the revelation, the Christian revelation here in Holly Land. But also we are part of the mosaic of this land. Muslim, Christians, Jews, Druze, and other without Christians, this land will be less universal. Jerusalem will be less universal. But the vocation of Jerusalem is to be universal, to be a city open to all, where all the people can come and pray here. This presence is very important. Also historically, we have since always Christians have been present here. We cannot imagine Christians abandon totally the Holy Land. So it's important to keep the presence here. And the association you mentioned, uh Knewa, Catholic Relief Service, many other Catholic organizations, but not only, are very important to help and support the Christian presence here in Holy Land.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

You mentioned how small Christians are as a minority and Roman Catholics, even smaller percentage of that. What does, of course, inner religious dialogue is an absolute necessity in this context, but what does evangelization look like when Christians are such a minority? How do Christians who live in the Holy Land share, as Pope Francis called it, the joy of the gospel?

SPEAKER_02 11:13

First of all, we have to leave it, to leave ourselves or the gospel. Here the we cannot proselytize, and also we don't want to proselytize. But evangelization here means first of all, there are two ways of evangelize, the intradexa, inside and outside, inward, outward, outward, sorry. In order, first of all, to evangelize our people, because not always Christians who are born as Christians, uh they know what it means. And the formation of our Christian community is very important. This is part of our evangelization, but also to give testimony of our faith, to be witnesses of our faith in our context, with our life, with our institutions, we have schools. We have more than hundred schools where about 50,000 students are going to our schools, most of them non-Christians, but they go to our schools because they appreciate our style of life. And the hospitals, many other institutions like this. Evangelization here means, first of all, to be present and to be alight, uh to be someone that people can see and uh at least ask themselves why they are so different and so happy.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

In the United States, sometimes it seems like there are only two answers to every question. We're defined by binaries: right, left, democrat, republican, conservative, liberal. In in this context, Americans, many Americans have strong feelings about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And I live in a place, Minnesota, where there is a large Jewish and large Muslim population, and there's an expectation that people take sides, and they're pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian. And what would what you what would you say to American Catholics who feel like they need to transcend those partisan divides and these binaries? And what do they need, how do they how do we need to think about the conflict um that's going on here in this place?

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Oh, it's very complicated to answer. It's not simple. But the reality is very complicated. The complexity of the situation is doesn't allow uh us to to take so easily one side because the situation is very complex. As I said, what is important for us? First of all, at the same time we cannot be neutral, huh? When you see a suffering of the people, you cannot be neutral. The suffering are all the same. The responsibilities are different. So we have to be able to express solidarity and empathy with everyone's suffering. It doesn't matter if Israel or Palestinians. The mothers that is crying their children is the same, Palestinian or Israelis. Responsibilities are different. There are responsibilities that created this situation, and they have to be addressed, of course. So I think that is very important to try to understand, try to listen, to show empathy, to be clear also, to be honest in these and authentic in this uh situation. Trying to do all what is possible in our language, in our attitude, to keep our gates open.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

In this context, many Americans are worried about anti-Semitism rising, not just in the United States, but worldwide as well. Also, people are also concerned about the actions of the Israeli government and in some instances toward the Palestinians and what's happening in Gaza and the suffering that's there. How do we navigate this tension, or maybe you have some personal words of wisdom, between standing in solidarity with our Jewish brothers and their suffering, but also the Palestinians and their suffering?

SPEAKER_02 15:00

No one is a magic formula for this situation, especially in this very polarized attitude and the vision of the events. We have to condemn very clearly, without any exception, any kind, any form of anti-Semitism. This is out of discussion. It's part of our identity as Christians. All what deny the life of the existence of the other as is, is something that we have to reject. At the same time, we have to also to keep our symmetry freedom, to say in friendship. If you love some person, also you can tell him that you disagree sometimes, uh, in a very fraternal way, very respectful way, but also at the same time a very clear way.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

In many ways, the conflict here between Palestinians and the Arab world more broadly and the Jewish community is religious, but it's also ethnic and tribal in some ways as well. And you mentioned that the church here is the only non-ethnic religious entity. What special role do you see the gospel and the gospel values of forgiveness and reconciliation possibly being as a mode of evangelization in this context?

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Forgiveness and reconciliation are very important topics. They take some time. We have also distinguished the personal level and community level. A personal level, every moment is the right moment, is the kairos for forgiveness and reconciliation. And we need, desperately need these examples of forgiveness and reconciliation now, even if the situation is not solved, even in the midst of the conflict, to see people that are able to reconcile, able to forgive, are something that we need. Because our example, testimony that open our eyes and our heart. At the community level, the dynamic is different. It takes more time. You have to respect the suffering, you have to respect the time of the community, you have also to respect the request of justice to be done or something to be corrected, truth to be to become visible, understood, or said. So it's a more long process, but necessary. You have to start. If you don't start, you don't arrive to that important moment.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

You serve Catholics on both sides of this conflict. How have you been able to it effectuate any forgiveness or reconciliation, or is simply being present to them in their suffering and listening to them the way in which you best serve in this situation?

SPEAKER_02 17:52

I'm not sure that I'm always being able to deal with it. But I decided to be present in all the different realities, to be there with myself, my physical presence, but also my empathy, my words. Try to listen to them, to give expression also to their misunderstanding, their anger sometimes. But to be present, this is what I decided to do. Sometimes I I may have made mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

You are a Franciscan, and this is the 800th year we just celebrated of Francis's transitus. The Franciscans, of course, have a special and important role here as custos of the Holy Land. What lessons can we learn from Francis in his love of pilgrimage, of his dialogue with the Sultan, of his life and witness that are important not just in the Holy Land, but for Catholics all over the world?

SPEAKER_02 19:06

At that time, San Francisco did something that was not expected, not according to the protocols, not according to the common sense, in a way. In his life in Italy, when he started to leave the gospel without any interpretation, poor life, poverty, and so on, and also the meeting with the Sultan, the pilgrimage to Holy Land. What I learn now is that also if I will follow the protocol, if we follow the protocol and the common sense, nothing will change here. We need someone able to open ways, to help us thinking differently sometimes, to have the courage also to say something uh unexpected, to do something unexpected, as he did with the Sultan, for instance, because this will help us to reflect, to think, and to consider.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

After October 7th, you offered yourself to be traded in exchange for hostage Israeli hostages released. What compelled you to do that?

SPEAKER_02 20:13

I'm not a hero. It was an answer to a question. In case we will be asked, are you ready? I said absolutely yes. Without any exception, without any condition, immediately.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

One is struck walking around the holy places and the archaeological expeditions here of groups of American Protestant evangelicals here in the Holy Land. And in our previous conversation with our group, you mentioned that there isn't much dialogue between Catholics and evangelicals. In the United States, of course, there is. And part of that has been exactly what you suggested working through and reading the Bible together. Say a little bit about the importance of reading the scriptures together as a way of ecumenical and interreligious dialogue.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

To know better each other, we need to sit down and discuss and to talk. And also since the Bible is common to all of us, but we read it differently, to know better each other, to understand also the different way of thinking, to sit down and read together the Bible is very important. There are some topics very difficult here. For instance, the land, the interpretation of the scripture about the land. And we Catholics spiritualize everything. The evangelical maybe they have a literal reading of it, not always, depends. There are many different ways. So we need to sit down and see and to discuss together and read together the passage passage of the gospel and try to see how they understand. Understand, especially the difficult passage of the Gospel of the Old Testament, how they read it, how we read it, and to share. And maybe we can learn something, maybe they can learn something.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Your Eminence, you've been so generous with your time today. Is there anything else you'd like to share or say to Catholics in America listening to this podcast?

SPEAKER_02 22:21

First of all, thank you. I say that don't be afraid, pilgrimage is safe. We need to see you here, and your presence will bring a lot of joy to the Christian community here, but not only.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Thank you, Your Eminence, for a beautiful conversation. Noah about the prayers of our community in the United States for you and your ministry and all the peoples of this land. Not political in the sense of partisan or someone who holds office, but someone who works for the good of the city and plays a major role in the conversation about how diverse peoples in that region can order their life together. It is said by many that the Catholic Church is delivering the spiritual aid and humanitarian relief to help Palestinians survive the challenges they face. While overseeing that important ministry, Colonel Pizza Bala is also working to cultivate positive dialogue with the State of Israel and serve the growing Hebrew-speaking Catholic community in the region. Colonel Pizza Bala's pastoral letter focuses on working for the good of the city by living the reality of the heavenly one. He cautions that in doing so, Christians are not just a bridge between two conflicting parties or mediators of dialogue, but those who forge true fraternity, peace, and reconciliation, first by living that vision among themselves as Christians. In the Holy Land, there are 13 different Christian denominations and communities living together there. And so working together and first working well as a Christian community is the first step in that witness of being a light to others. In this vocation, Cardinal Peace of Allah recognizes that in a place where the land and the stones are seen as sacred and the possession of them is often a source of the conflict. Christians live the reality that the kingdom of God is not fundamentally a city built of rocks and raw materials, but one built on living stones. His vision calls to mind the exhortation of Saint Paul in Galatians that in Christ Jesus we are neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, but we are all one in Christ Jesus. As the only non-ethnic spiritual community in the region, the church, Catholic Church, is uniquely positioned to transcend lines of division and be a force of reconciliation. As a Franciscan, Cardinal Pizza Bala is hoping that Christians there preach the gospel and use words if necessary. We must work to pray and support the small Christian community in the Holy Land as they work to live the noble vocation to which his Beatitude is calling his small and courageous flock. Thank you as always for listening to this episode of Catholic and America. I hope you have found it edifying and educational. Very grateful for the way in which you've generously spent your time to understand what's going on in the Holy Land, especially the plight of Christians there. Thanks again for listening. God bless you and your family. Look forward to joining you again on the next episode of Catholic America. Peace to you.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

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